>> Michael Ackley:  Welcome to Devalued with Mike and Caroline. The place where we talk about art and money and how creative people are navigating the ever changing landscape or trying to make a living for their work.

<br><br>>> Caroline: We're going to be interviewing all types of creative people and we'll be talking about all types of issues that creative people face. We hope you'll get something out of it. We're excited to welcome you to Devalued. Hey, M. Goal. Hey, Michael.

<br><br>>> Michael Eades:  Oh, hi, Caroline. We have, ah, I'm subbing in for Michael Ackley today.

<br><br>>> Caroline: Yes, uh, we're pleased to have you. Thank you for steppbing in. Um, tell the people who we're talking to today.

<br><br>>> Michael:  We are talking to Jason Moon Wilkins and Emily Young of the Nashville public radio station WNXP , the Nashville Experience.

<br><br>>> Caroline: I listen to them, I guess every day when I get my car.

<br><br>>> Michael:  Yeah, I also listen to them daily. Uh, love what they're doing. They've been around for four years now. Still kind of a young, uh, station, but they have a lifetime of experience behind them.

<br><br>>> Caroline: Great DJs, very hip, very cool, very community minded. And I really enjoyed hearing their perspectives on the industry, on uh, how artists can reach them. There's a lot of good information and perspective in this interview.

<br><br>>> Michael:  Yeah, they really brought some practical insights as well as just like some industry talk as well. Pretty awesome. I do say so ourselves.

<br><br>>> Caroline: I agree. You want to get into it, let's get into it.

<br><br>>> Michael:  This is Devalued to podcast. I'm Michael Ead subbing in for Michael Ackley. He had a long work call. Sorry, Michael. Uh, but fortunately they have two Michaels on the team, so I'm gonna step right in. It works well, um, Caroline, of course here as always. And we are joined by two very special, special guest today. Please introduce yourselves. We'll start with you.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: I'm Emily Young, longtime lifelong Nashvillian, and I am the events director at WN XP.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: Um, I'm Jason Mo Wilkins, 31 years into Nashville and the program director and uh, brand manager for WNXP .

<br><br>>> Emily Young: I like the finger quotes he did.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: This'm still uncomfortable with this title, obviously after 31 years.

<br><br>>> Michael:  Do you get to say you're in Nashevilleian?

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: I've wondered.

<br><br>>> Michael:  Never get to say it.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: I think I get to say that to people who are younger than 31.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: I just got you be then I just snuck in right in the Nickotab.

<br><br>>> Michael:  Amazing.

<br><br>>> Caroline: I think Luke's been here not that long. My husband and he, I mean his Instagram handles Luke from Nashville. He's just decided he is part of it now.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: So I also think when you're ingrained in the community so much, that it would be impossible to think of Nashville without you. You can call yourself a Nashvilleian, and I think you've earned that title.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: Wow. Breaking news.

<br><br>>> Michael:  High praise. You, Uh, I grew up in Franklin, and my wife will not let me say I'm from Nashville.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: Oh, you can say that. Can say. You can say. You can say that.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: It's one big Nashville at this point.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: I mean, so Nashville to me is middle Tennessee because I grew up here, and no one lived unless you had a lot of money. No one lived, like, on Belmont Boulevard or something. You are, like, right in the hub of Nashville. When you said you're from Nashville, you said, oh, where from?

<br><br>>> Michael:  Right.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: Thinking they would say, Madison Franklin, Mount Juliet, you know, And I'm like, yeah, that's all the same. That's still Nashville. You can count it.

<br><br>>> Caroline: Nashville.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: You can count it.

<br><br>>> Caroline: Okay.

<br><br>>> Michael:  Wow.

<br><br>>> Caroline: Very inclusive of you. A lot of people are not that way. Well, uh, what do you guys think? The basic question at the root of this whole thing.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: Yeah.

<br><br>>> Caroline: Uh, what do you think about the relationship between music and moneymm?

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: M wow. Like, you mean overall in general?

<br><br>>> Michael:  We start real big.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, man, you know, this, uh, today on the radio, uh, played the Everything is Free song from Gillian Welch, who, um.

<br><br>>> Caroline: I cry every time.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: Yeah, it's. You know, and they really nailed it on. On that song about how it's so true that we would do it anyway. Right. Like that. Every artist who I've ever known, and I was in that, you know, boat myself for a while, and a musician like, you know, there is no way to stop this thing that, you know, happens within you and that wants to come out. So then it all becomes. How do you get from that. From that, uh, point of creation to people? And I do think that there are parts of the business. I mean, we could spend a lot of time on this that were built out that don't really have anything to do with art. They don't have anything to do with music, and they don't have anything to do with the people receiving the music. You know, there's sort of infrastructure around music that was created that cost money. And so therefore, more systems in place, more money needs to be extracted from the consumer to support the system. Right. And that's. I mean, there's a lot of systems like that, and music being one of them. And so when people talk. Can I say the S word?

<br><br>>> Michael:  Oh, you could say it.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: Oh, we're not on the radio today, baby.

<br><br>>> Michael:  Fly.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: I'm so not used to this.

<br><br>>> Michael:  Get filthy, Jason.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: I'm about to let him fly.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: Shoot.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: It's about to get real now.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: No, but when people talk shit about the music business, which they do a lot, you know, in song and in real life, you understand it, but it's also like they're talking about parts of the business that sometimes people who are even in those parts aren't technically really participating. And so I'm always a bit of an apologist for it because there's so many of us who join into this thing for that basic. Like, we want to get that art from point A to point B. We want to help the artist find an audience. Um, but at that very root of it, then it becomes, you know, to answer your question more directly, it. Does it have value? Yeah, yeah, I think it does.

<br><br>>> Michael:  So they can coexist?

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: I think so. I think so.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: Em, I think it's getting, um. It's getting harder to coexist or the importance has switched a little bit that I feel like it used to be, you know, the trends followed the art. Like, what is this? Music is so good and everyone wants to be this so good thing. And now there's kind of this, uh. I, uh, don't want to just use TikTok, but that's a great example. There's just this machine and thing that decides what's good. And so everyone's like, great, we need to make that thing that's going to be popular so that we can make money. And it's just so different. It used to be we create this art, we play it, and we hope people like it and they receive it, and then cool. If we make money. Great. And now there's this band, Bodega, who released an exceptional record this year about just that. They have a line that says, are we artists or are we advertisers? And that's really what art. Like, that's what it is to be a musician now. You have to think to be successful quot unquote, you have to think big. Pictured isn't just a song. Okay, well, how are we going toa market this song? How am I going to make a trendy little dance to this song? It's just become so much more complicated and money has just muddied it so much more that I think. I think we're really lucky that there are still artists willing to make art for the sake of making art. Um, but so many aren't. So many are just chasing the money and it's just a, it's a sad time I think to look at it that way.

<br><br>>> Michael:  That's amazing. Uh, it sounds like the Internet had a big hand in uh, democratizing the reach of music and therefore it made it like you want to chase a trend instead of just like, you know, in the 60s, 70s, 80s, it was very hard to make a record. So you really, I mean you would be better off to do something original that felt true to yourself than like something that you're chasing a trend. But there were still trend chasers then too.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: Yeah, I mean there's always been the.

<br><br>>> Michael:  Internet just make it insanely like multitudes of 100 from what it used to be.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: No, I think when it's interesting, when you follow, you remember the long tail idea, right? Do you remember this? Sure. So, you know, this is concept of when, uh, streaming was, you know, first really starting to be popularized. This idea that, okay, what's going to be great about this is that it'snn, you know, the rising tide'going to lift all the boats and it's not going to be just so top heavy. But I think this is one of those things. I don't know if we can truly even have the full perspective now. I think it's going to take us another five or six, seven years to really have a view on how this has panned out. But what it has panned out to do is like you were re saying, it's not that different from the 50s or the 70s or the 90s where it still sort of hass and haves nots, you know, and is that, I mean we want to get really bas on it? Is that just the nature of capitalism? You know, it to create haves and have nots and music is just part of that?

<br><br>>> Emily Young: I mean, I think the answer is yes. Uh, it just feels, uh, because we have such instant access to everything all the time that it feels so much greater than like the people following the trends feel so much greater. And to your point, it's a heck of a lot easier to release a record. To make a record, to release a record. You can record it in your home, you can put it out on your own, you can do this whole thing. And as we know, that's not always been the case. So it feels like you're getting more and more of those trends. And that's partially just because it's so much easier to put things out into the world.

<br><br>>> Caroline: Wasn't there that statistic recently that there are more songs out in one day now? Than there used to be put out in a year.

<br><br>>> Michael:  Yeah, I heard something and do not hold me to this. Maybe I will bleep this on the edit because the numbers. So I heard 10,000 songs a day were uploaded to the streaming services. Can that be true?

<br><br>>> Emily Young: Yes. Have you heard some really bad songs and they didn't say 10,000 perfect songs?

<br><br>>> Michael:  That's just like. Is there AI and bots involved with that number? That's probablyane.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: Yes.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: Yeah. I mean, yeah.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: Gosh.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: And all of it's not even songs sometimes. It's literally like that is now asmrr. I mean, some of that stuff qualifies as a song, which is just a copyright, you know, uh, thing waiting to happen. But yeah, I mean, there when it first started, when some of the streaming, Streaming, uh, services first rolled out, it wasn't so completely democratized. You had to work with the distributor to actually get your stuff up on Spotify or Deezer or whatever. And I think there's a little bit of value in that. In that, um, you know. Yes, the moral base of who I am says everyone should be able to do everything. But I do think that it does. Um, it's not even muddying the waters at this point. It's like it's creating new oceans that can make it difficult because not everything is created equal there, you know, And I think there is value in, um, an artist having to. To work and figure out, you know, um, all the things that work about their music, you know, before just putting it on wax, you know, so to speak. But I don't know. But some people hate. Some people hit out of the park right out. You know, little Nas made a song and it was a great song, you know, and. But for every little Nas x, there are 10,9999 others a day that are not that. Yeah.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: We also have jobs within the music industry, so we clearly do appreciate when things make money and we depend on that to make a living.

<br><br>>> Michael:  Yeah. So this could go so many amazing directions. I want to talk about the lack of pop culture or the fracturing of pop culture just because I think with the landscape where you're having 10,000 new songs a day, what is pop culture like? Beyonce S&Taylor Swifts are like outliers. Major, major outliers. But I also want to rewind and talk about specifically what your jobs are and how radio plays into this and kind of frame. If we're talking about being a musician, we're talking about streaming services and we're talking about Internet and all that I think a lot of times radio is now getting lost and it gets thought of as like, oh, yeah, there's still radio.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: Can.

<br><br>>> Michael:  Is that like Pandora or whatever? But it's like, no, you can, like, really reach people and really create a community and a culture through radio. And I'm not saying that because you do work at a great radio station here in Nashville. There's so many examples of that across the country. I mean, like, KEX EXP is a great example. Like, um, what is, uh, the one in New Jersey that's like FMU?

<br><br>>> Emily Young: Yeah, FMU'a one.

<br><br>>> Michael:  There's so many incredible radio stats and so many that I don't even know about in, like, Arizona, in Montana. Like, I'm sure that they exist. So I just want to rewind a little bit and be like, okay, your. How does the radio station work?

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: Does it work?

<br><br>>> Michael:  Both do there specifically and really talk about your brand manager role.

<br><br>>> Caroline: It sounds really impossible.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: I just want y all to know that's the first I've ever heard about right now. This mic with the fingercoatses and all. I was like, oh, this is new. All right.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: This is what, like, upper management. We have been talking. Honestly, it's like, I hate that. I hate that term, but, you know, no one's really interested in this. But the reason. The reason that you come up with it now is that program director was really about, like, uh, creating content and being on the air and all that kind of stuff like that. And at this point, WNXP  is a radio station, but it is also a YouTube channel, and it's an Instagram thing There. I met a bartender. I told Emily about this, who he really only interacts with us on Instagram. That's it. He doesn't really listen to the radio station, doesn't really listen to radio in general, you know, and he's not even necessarily clicking through to go, like, watch a full live session of something. He's like, like your clips on Instagram. But so to that end, like, what, uh, these days, a lot of what we are doing, and my primary job is to, like, set the concept, um, and make sure that it is consistent and that what we are doing in all these places, um, both is. Fits what we're trying to do and fits the mission. Cause it is a public radio station and, uh, a nonprofit. So it's that. Thus the, you know, um, the secondary title is that. But what I can say about. There's so many ways to go with where radio is now. And I think the narrative is that radio's dead. Right. And that's comfortable, uh, with that because part of it is, part of it is dead. And when we say it's, it's like defined radio then, right? What are you talking about? And most of the time that is talking about either Top 40 radio or some people. It's like what alternative radio was and has not been for a really long time. And that's, man, that is a whole other subject on how it arrived at its death, which it is pretty dead. Um, but so much of it is corporatization and monoculture in a bad way. But it'also the death of monoculture. What you were just referring to as like what is familiar to everyone. Right. And how niche things have become. And there's more to say on that. But I will say, like where stations like ours have, um, have actually flourished in the last several years, you know, you've seen down in Austin, in Philadelphia, all these other places where despite lower consumption of radio in general, they have grown is because exactly what you said, they're focused on community first, number one, and building community within that community. So it is't, it's a niche product at this point, whereas it used to be the mainstream. But it still has a lot of value. And a lot of that value shows up in artist development, which has sort of been abandoned by labels in general. So it sort of thrust it onto certain media like ours and the live element, you know, which is a lot of where uh, Emily works is, you know, we still get paid a decent amount of money from promoters and venues and things like that because over our, you know, only four years in existence now, we have been proven to help them get the word out about shows or about a new release. And so it's, it's not everyone who's listening to the radio, but the people who are, and it's a pretty wide demographic, um, they are the ones who are actively looking for new music and wanting to know when so and so is playing town. Yeah, yeah.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: I think there's also the personal element of it. You know, it's not an algorithm. It is not just going to shuffle something and spit it out to you. These are real life human beings who are curating something for another human being. And I think that regardless of all the things that have happened in the world in development, people still want that human to human contact. And we see that even with. It's clearly a model that works because we see that with streaming services circling back, being like, we're creating this new thing. Oh yeah, we're Gonna broadcast live with a host. And we're like, oh, mean, you mean radio? You mean the thing that has existed long before you.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: Can we all toast to the death of the car thing? Spotify car thing, car thing. Pour one out for you.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: But it's so sad.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: You tried so hard to be the radio, right?

<br><br>>> Emily Young: And so we know that this model works and they know it works. You know, they've tried to recreate it in a backwards way, but I think it's that it's the human element and it is community. And that's honestly what I feel like my whole job is, is helping build and cultivate that. And I feel very lucky because this is my hometown. There's few things I care about more than this music community and the people in it. And it's our opportunityt's elevate these artists but also bring together these like minded individuals and in a way that feels very genuine and special. And it's also, it feels so the antithesis of capitalism and all the ways that people are trying to turn money and make this into a money making scheme. I feel like we have this beautiful gift to be able to be like, yeah, okay, I mean money'cool we need it to exist. But we care a lot more about the human beings that are involved in this whole thing.

<br><br>>> Michael:  What is your specific like role? Like what are you doing there? I've heard your job title, but I know there's so much more involved.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: A lot of things, yes, I am a host, but I feel like that's lower on the list. Although these days I feel like maybe not. Um, I've been filling in a lot. So I feel today especially I'm like, well, I don't know, I was on the radio for five hours. Um, so we do these live sessions. Um, so I book all of those live sessions. Jason helps me out with curating when sometimes I'm like, is this a good idea or is this just my personal taste? Which happens to be exceptional? Uh, um, so I produce all of those that we do, but I also um, create all of our in person events. So basically anything that's happening human to human in real life, that is where I come in. So we also are seeking out like minded partnerships. So finding other venues or people within the community, whether it's bars or restaurants or businesses that kind of share the same mission, meeting with them and finding ways that we can collaborate together and create these special experiences. M that includes some obvious things like booking shows and partnering with shows and promoters to either promote a show or we are outright booking something. Um, its other things like we host music trivia once a month and its funny some of those things you roll the dice. You'like I dont know if this will work and people love it and you see the same individuals most weeks. Everyone is so happy to be there and it just, I don't know, it's really special to put on these things to bring this community together and see people experience joy in a time that feels kind of dark and heavy. So all in person thinks that's where I can.

<br><br>>> Michael:  There are quite a few of them as well.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: Yes.

<br><br>>> Michael:  Nice job.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: Thank you.

<br><br>>> Caroline: Are you guys mostly funded by individual donors?

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: It's sliced up. Um, yeah, we were just having this discussion because you know, everyone's having a discussion after, you know, Elon Musk comes out and says he wants to defund the Corporation for Public Broadcasting and chill.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: Super cooleah guyy.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: Um, and so you know, when that word is coming out, it does offer us. We're going to be doing some fundraising next week and we were just talking about how to discuss this and part of that discussion is to help people understand the funding that it isn't just uh, yes, the Corporation for Public Broadcasting rightsites every public radio station that is part of that network, uh, a check. And for us, you know, we have uh, an NPR music station. So it's like, you know, multiple stations and all that and it's worth X dollars and that is 5% of our budget, I think grand total for both stations. The most important point is that it's a network that they also provide uh, support. One of the things that most directly impacts us is they pay the licensing fees for bmi, ascap, cac. So that's a huge chunk, you know, and that's something that we would have to take on uh, as an individual station as opposed to them being able to take care of it network wide. So there's, there are things that are part of that funding that are really important. So sorry, it's very much on my mind. But the rest of it, the pie chart is we have corporate support and underwriting, know the messages that you hear and then you have the individual donors, uh, that vary greatly in size. You know, some folks who are five, five bucks, some people are 5,000. Um, and that's, that's, that's what helps make this model sustainable in this time, I think. Um, and why there's still hope for public media to survive in this fragmented world is because you have, you're not so relying up on one revenue source mhm. Yeah.

<br><br>>> Caroline: Yeah. I uh, I refuse to believe that radio is dying. It cannot happen. I have been called a cursed shopper though. I think I like things that other people don't seem to like. Everything I like in the store doesn't.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: It's okay, pick up again. That's already been happening, so.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: Also, yeah, I feel like how many more years am I going toa hear radios dying? Yeah, and it's not dead yet. And we launched a station in 2020 which seems pretty insane. So it'very clearly we were confident enough that it's still alive and well enough and that we're in a like, I mean, being in Nashville Music City, we really hope and it's been, it's proven successful thus far, but the hope is that we have people that know the value and the service that we're operating.

<br><br>>> Michael:  Totally. Yeah. I mean it's also whenever something changes, you're like, uh, oh, it's done. It can't adapt. There's no way. It's like o. Well, I mean to your point earlier, like the radio in the 90s doesn't exist anymore, but radio in 2020 is just different. This is a different thing and it's a different model and I think it is taking on way more interesting like avenues.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: Well, we're picking up some of the slack that you, you I have worked in. Uh, so whereas your'curse shopper. Like I'm a cursed crew member. I guess because I've been on so many different sinking ships. Um, the music business, uh, the print business, the radio business. Oh, it's too late for that. Um, I'll should throw me overboard early. Mutiny. So sorry. I've been listening to like ah, podcast about uh, history and naval history for. And I'm not even into it, but it's just a. Interesting.

<br><br>>> Caroline: I'm expecting at least one more naval turn before the end of the episode.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: Yes. Starboard. Um, done. Click check. No more on to my to do list. Um, but where in the heck are we going with that?

<br><br>>> Caroline: Sorry.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: No, no, um, you join Dying Industries.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: Ah, yeah. Join Dying Industries. Um, well, one of them has been, you know, journalism in general has been taking huge hits. Music journalism has been taking huge hits. And that is one of those places where we can start filling in the gaps a little bit. Uh, we've just been rearranging people internally. We only have seven full time staff members, but dedicating more resources to. How do you cover music news in a city like Nashville? You need to have someone more dedicated to it. We had a great, you Know, the national scene had the cream for a while and treated music more like news. And, uh, they have less staff now. The Tennessean has cut their people back, you know, um, and so how do you start filling in some of those gaps? So to your point, it's like, yeah, is it. Is it where it was? Is it the same kind of thing where I'm just showing up and I'm a DJ and then I pick some songs and I talk to a record label and we go do a show? Like, that was the job in 1996. Right, right. You know, that's not the job now.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: But to your point about being, you know, quote unquote, brand manager, we are more than a radio station. And as other independent entities within the music industry have crumbled, it is we've kind of stepped up and filled that role. I mean, we watched what happened with pitchforrk and some of these other indie publications. We're like, well, okay, another one bites the dust. It s time for us to maybe see what we can do here. I mean, we're losing more and more opportunities or more and more platforms for artists to endorse themselves and, you know, show things off. Right. Right now we're just kind of limited to social media, and that feels scammy, too. So what can we do? What purpose can we serve? And it is interviewing them and it's doing this editorial work. It's also doing these live sessions. I mean, we're doing everything we can to boost these artists. And, uh, that's not also not necessarily what the role was for radio before. It was like, here's a new song, Press's Play, and we're kind of looking a little more bigger picture with an artist.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: Totally.

<br><br>>> Caroline: You got something.

<br><br>>> Michael:  I always got something.

<br><br>>> Caroline: You got what's on your mind.

<br><br>>> Michael:  I wanted to sort of frame the conversation around, like, as if, how does an artist interact with you? Like, uh, not necessarily label, not an anr, not a promoter, but, like, um, let's even use a local musician as an example. Uh, someone who has a record or a song, and they're like, I want toa promote it to your point earlier, like, oh, I've got to make an advertisement for my thing. But really, you just wantna, like, get the word out. That's the whole point of releasing your music is you want to get the word out and have people listen to it. You'renna post on Instagram and on Blue sky and Threads or whatever the thing is, um, and I think people forget.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: To submit it to the radio oh, my gosh. If we could put this part at the very beginning of the episode.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: Also, even if they have labels, uh, that doesn't always help either. And we don't even have to get into how many labels have cut their radio departments. And then we're just left floating around like, well, where the hell do we get this music from? Who do I even ask? Who's our contact now? They got rid of these other people.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: They cut radio, they cut marketing. It's like, we. We were talking about this the other day. They were, um. Well, just this week, there were five records that came out on various different levels. You know, one was a major label, one was an independent, one was a major independent. Um, none of them sent their music. And some of that is due to. Yeah, okay. People forget, look, it's December. People in the music business stop working. But some of it is also, man, we were really starting to feel the effects of all these cuts that have been happening. Universal and Warner and all these kind of places. Uh, and even on the independent side. So it's difficult. But to answer your question, like, how do people reach us and how do we interact with them? There's so many different avenues. I remember asking you this question at some point, like, how do you find music? You know, and you were talking about the different ways that, you know, uh, using the Nashville hashtag and bandamp, you know, so that things pop up. I've got so many different, you know, and we all do. Spinning plates of, uh, suggestions coming in, you know, whether that is by humans, you know, people that, you know. Or it might be a promoter, it might be the band themselves, it might be you. Or it's listening to a playlist like everybody else, or, you know, hearing it on, um, pop up on an ad or something. There's like, uh, your ears are open all the time for those opportunities to arrive. And I will say that there's one part of the business that I think has stayed very similar and that I still very much trust, which is that, you know, for every little Nas X who does come out of nowhere, you know, and out of the bedroom, like most of the folks who arrive finally ready for us to help them, have found their way to someone else within the community, you know, whether that's on a national level or a local level, who are then helping champion them, because it is almost impossible, especially in Nashville, to be good and to be on stage and to do something and have no one come after you and want to help you in some way or want to work with you. Or try to leech off of you.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: Or even a friend that's like, also in the. You know, in the same realm as you that's like, this is so good. You got to hear it.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: Yeah. So it is so rare, an artist, you know, artists coming through and we're talking to them before a show. Have you. Who was it? Was it Waxahachie that was talking about, um. Oh, how knew I was gonna space on itan Brendan whdel?

<br><br>>> Emily Young: Oh, I was like, y. I don't know why you're looking at me ia I'm not gonna know.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: Um, you know, local artists who I had at that point, not heard right. It's like working at the bellur, you know, and put out this really cool song. And, um. And so it, you know, it comes at you in all these different ways. And ultimately, still the filter is, do we think this is really good? Do we think it's legit? And do we want to share it with people? You know, and sometimes that's folks with 64 followers, you know, the recent local band or 6 million, you know, and I do try to make sure that we don't, um, differentiate. I think that's part of, like, a big philosophical thing. And Emily'heard me talk about this a lot, is that I believe it's really important to put the local artists on the same level u, um, as the national artist. And so therefore, you want to make sure it is of that same quality. And it doesn't. I don't mean necessarily recording quality. Like this song, if I'm gonna play it from this to this, it's not a drop off, and it doesn't feel like a pat on the back, like, oh, good job for a local band, you know, it's like, no, this is.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: Yeah, like, you could play this band and Tam and Paula could come up after, and you wouldn't be like, o. That was, you know, jarring difference. You would be like, oh, that was all right. Yeah, respect. And I do I actually, that is, um. I remember you saying that to me, and I was like, yeah, that is. That's how this should be done. Because anyone can say we champion locals and play just everything without any filter, without any, I mean, criticism. And, like, that is our job also to be somewhat critics, if you will. Um, we're not necessarily gonna play something, be like, man, wasn't that terrible? But we're notnna play. We're notnna play anything we think is bad, and we're not gonna play anything.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: That just because we're friends with Somebody, right?

<br><br>>> Emily Young: That just because we're. This is for all of my friends. This is for all of my friends listening to this pocket. No, I'm just kidding. Um, no. Yeah. We're not gonna play someone just because we're not even gonna play a song. Look, an artist could be great, and we think they're great. They put out a crappy song. We're not gonna play the crappy song.

<br><br>>> Michael:  That's great.

<br><br>>> Caroline: So as a listener, I'm always super pleasantly surprised when I hear a cool song that I haven't heard before. I Shaz Sayam while driving. I'm so sorry, but I Shaz say while driving. And it's someone that I know or know of in the scene. And I'm like, oh, that's so cool that they're, uh, existing in this medium. That could be anyone. It could be a tame imp, Paula, you know, but it's someone local. And then I'm like, oh, guess I'm a fan. I didn't even know it.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: Great.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: That's great.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: I mean, we take that same approach when it comes to putting on shows and booking live sessions and things, too. Like, there's also folks that have really great songs, but they're not quite ready for a bigger stage. We're, like, cool. All right, well, we'll stick around. We're with you. We're with you. We're, like, playing the long game with you. Uh, we'll go to a few shows. Wait till you got a band. You're figuring it out a little bit, and then locked in. All right. Then you can come play a show for us. So we definitely. There's a level of. I mean, you talked about how labels will kind of abandon this artist development idea. We haven't. That's kind of our main thing. We find someone, and we're going to stick with it and hope that we're part of their journey as they grow. Um, and maybe they remember thatus a fat check when they sell off Ridge. Don Arena.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: You still want to be aspirational, right? You still want to be something that people shoot for. You know, it means something. And that's been some of the. Honestly, the most meaningful, um, things that have happened since we've done this have been artists. You know, they'be. They'll make a video of themselves hearing their song on the radio for the first time. And there was, uh, an artist recently did this, and she was crying. And, um. But you could see it was like, oh, okay. There was a sense of validation in that. Uh, and we take that seriously, too.

<br><br>>> Michael:  I mean, it feels awesome. I'm not a musician at all, but I will send you all music that I am releasing through yk. And it's like, oh, you're playing this song. Like, uh, this reached people who hear music literally all day, every day. And they were like, this. Should we want to share this with other people? And it just feels incredible. It feels great every time. And I think more artists need to, like, just send it in.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: Oh, yeah, sorry, you're right.

<br><br>>> Michael:  Pointling back to the send.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: The point was, please send us, uh, a WA file.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: Specifically a WAV file.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: And very specifically, like, clean. You can do your edits yourself. Because if we have to do the edits and we have to take the shits out, like, it doesn't sound as good.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: And it's gonna get. If we can't play it immediately, we're like, oh, we'll do that edit tomorrow.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: And then it gets.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: Yeah, and then we'll do it. We'll do that edit two days from now.

<br><br>>> Caroline: Context two do.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: Oh, absolutely. Yes, yes, yes.

<br><br>>> Caroline: That's a big. That y'all provide for listeners is context for the music, not just musically, by putting it into a cool set of music that kind of lets it make sense, um, but also the story of the artist. Uh, I really enjoy, like, your Artists of the Month features. Those are super cool and helpful for me to, uh, I guess get attached more on an emotional level to the music and help me understand what it's about from their perspective.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: Absolutely. I mean, that is, you know, one of the things. I took a little side journey for five years into the NPR News side. And, and. And one of the pieces that I felt was really important to bring back to this, when we started, it was exactly that. Um, whenever we can, whether it's the DJs, and we're talking about it or the artists themselves, to be able to tell stories that then weave directly into that music. Because then it does. It just gives you this deeper appreciation, and it also, from a music discovery standpoint, helps you get out of your. The algorithm. You know, the algorithm is going to feed you whatever it does, it to me, you know, does to everybody. But the storytelling can set you up for something that you never would have chosen otherwise. Yeah.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: And often, I mean, sometimes the story makes me appreciate the music more. Like, if I had just heard that without context, I'm like, okay, that's pretty good. And then when you hear what went into it and inspiration behind, you're like, oh, never mind, I'm in. I'm sold. Am I crying? What's going on? But I could do an entire podcast on the perfect radio pitch. How brief is your description and your context? What is the file size? What does this look like?

<br><br>>> Michael:  We might take you up on it.

<br><br>>> Caroline: Honestly, pretty good. That's super helpful. And you know, when you've been in the music industry for as long as a lot of us have, you kind of take that knowledge for granted. Um, and people starting out just like, don't really know that.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: Well, yeah, it gets into that narrative too, right? Like, uh, if they think that radio is not part of the menu for them, then it's just not top of mind. And so they don't even think to send, which ultimately is just send the email, you know, or send me a link. It's not. That part's not that difficult. You know, if you're an instant reward, like, I'm going to get back to you immediately. As Michael knows, uh, that's not always going to happen.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: But it, That s when they email me and I reached out to Jason, I'm like, yeah, okay, got.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: But it is the first step, you know, it is like, get it out there and, and you know, at least get it in our hands because otherwise we can't really. We don't stream Spotify on the radio, you know that you sending me a link to that doesn't do me much good.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: Yeah, same with people like, oh, preview my new record. And I'm like, I need a downloadable link because if I like this, then we want to play it.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: Don're gonn play it immediately.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: We'll do it immediately. Yeah. I think another special thing, when people talk about radio dying and to your point, the importance to me is community. And that's what makes us so special. And why radio, I think, will continue to live is that we are also human beings. Like, there's not. There shouldn't be any type of intimidation to be like, hey, listen to my song. Look at us. We're just chilling right now. You know what I mean? It's not like, you know, we're some fancy man. We're just human beings. So I think there's also this level of like, oh, is this weird? And you're like, no, it's really not. It doesn't need to be formal. Just like, send us what we need.

<br><br>>> Michael:  Listen. Right, Yeah. I think people get intimidated maybe. I mean, if they're thinking like, oh, see you out at a show, or think to send something in. There's so much imposter syndrome, particularly fueled by social Networks and just.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: I have imposter syndrome. That's what I would say. I'd be like, yeah, okay, same. Let's do it. Probably everyone in this room, we're like, how do we get paid? Why are we getting paid to do this? How is this happening? Have we pulled this off?

<br><br>>> Michael:  That's true. I totally have it myself. Uh, I think. How do artists sort of think of, I don't know, we're having this conversation about art and money and radio. How do artists. Should artists think about money in that context with radio? Or do you not. And it's just like a promotional tool to spread the word and then people maybe come to shows, maybe buy a uh, record or a shirt, or just simply be aware of you.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: Yeah, I mean, I mean there is the look, it doesn't impact most of the people that we play because they're not getting to the number of airpl in, in our world spins instead of streams. The number of spins that would result in like a big check from the pros. BMI, ASCAPs, C SEC, they. But at the same time, you know, this is pretty common knowledge is out there. Radio pays a lot more than streaming. Mhm. So if you do have success in radio land, you are go going toa get uh, a check within that. So there is that value, you know, that's important to state. But most of the value at this point is less about that and more about the impact it can have in these other ways, uh, in raising your awareness in connecting with audiences, especially with the type of music, not, not music type of format in the way that we do it. Yes, you can get on playlist and it can help you really, really blow up. Um, so this is not an either or. This is an and this is. We're also, you know, broadcasting, not monocasting to an audience that includes lots of different types of people. So your music is then reaching people that your social ad did not, you know, that your appearance as an opener for artist X did not. So it's a piece of the menu that still has value. And we've seen it, you know, now we're four years in. We've seen artists who we were helping out in an early stage, um, that have been now risen and we have been a part of the story and sometimes bigger and sometimes smaller parts. But I mean there are people who have shown appreciation, I mean there's artists, huge artists who very much appreciate that, um, we were very early in on them.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: Um, anyway, well, there's still artists that have become super successful that can trace it back to radio. We did a session with Alt J, obviously, huge band. They were in town playing. I think it was Municipal. And they had found out that day that one of the singles that they had just released was number one on the chart, like AAA charts. And he made a point to be like, oh, radio is why we have a career. No. 1 in America. Like, we wouldn't be anything here. They had a couple radio songs, and that reached enough people. And he straight up was like, no, we credit that for why we're successful in the States and why we can come play venues like that. So you hear that, and it's just impossible to not think that radio can have that impact in some way. And, I mean, we see that in a hyper localal market. When a band plays a small venue, say they come to town, they play, you know, blue room, 250 cap. That's our thing. And maybe there's half the room'full but they put out a song, and we love it. We start supporting this artist and spending it. And now in Nashville, specifically, where people have grown to love and appreciate them, they can play a larger room and therefore get a bigger check. And so there. There are ways that it, you know, trickles down the line, then becomes dollar signs. It's just not a, like, instant thing.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: Well, and one thing that's really. It's very real in Nashville and very different than even some other places because there is a public radio network, so to speak, you know, and is not in the same way that, um, Odyssey, which is the big, you know, uh, giant alternative one where everyone plays the same things. We all play a lot of different things, but there's some things we agree on. But we all talk to each other, you know, and it is a very, very different and supportive group than the world I used to live in. You know, in the. In the old days. Um, uh, uh, names shall not be mentioned.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: Man, I was really. I was holding my breath. I was like, there' about to reveal.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: Some secret someone that Michael and I both know.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: That's another podcast.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: It is. That's a series. Um, but the. You get word of mouth between that, too. Right. Okay. So this person in Austin is supporting this. And it does matter, because I know. I know them. I know their taste. You know, let's check out what they're checking out. So that's another ripple effect you get from it. And the very direct thing that happens in Nashville, though, is that because we have such a high concentration of both artists and music business people here, then we have Direct impacts on artists careers. We have. There are people, big, big bands who have brought out openers because they heard the song on our radio station. It added them to their playlist. And we have seen these bands later on, they'like oh my God, you turned me ono so and so. And we brought them out on tour in Australia. You know, like, I don't even know if the bands know this sometimes. But we do know that bands who do do know that they, they got their agent through us or, you know, management or. Yeah. Or collaboration. Because an artist heard their song and reached out. And that's important too. You're building, uh, connections through that community that exists already, you know, that otherwise wouldn't have existed.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: You're right. We have definitely, you know, spun artists that then an agent reaches out or a manager and they're like, they said they heard me on the radio and now they want to work with me. And they're like, yeah, you're welcome. We did that. That was the plan all along.

<br><br>>> Caroline: I have a question about a term.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: Yeah.

<br><br>>> Caroline: That, that, may I. I think is outdated, but maybe it's like, not that outdated. Maybe it's just different out. Um, Pay to play.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: Oh, yeah.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: That's not outated.

<br><br>>> Caroline: I'm curious.

<br><br>>> Michael:  Payola.

<br><br>>> Caroline: What s. Uh, what's the situation? I mean, obviously you guys, uh, don't do that. I mean, your taste is too important to you to do that. I know that about you and I appreciate that about you. Um, which is why I listen to you. But I, uh, was just wondering if that was a thing.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: Yeah, I mean, in allinrity, we do have to be careful about. I don't want to insinuate anything about anyone directly about this because it is illegal still to do that. There are workarounds and there's, There are recent articles and Billboard magazine, if you would d like to read them, uh, about people who thought they had found workarounds and are now find themselves in legal trouble. There are people that we know, um, take money to make sure and play a song. And here, let me lead with empathy on this a little bit. The, the dissolution of the commercial radio world much. You know, they shot themselves in the foot on a lot of this. But I still have sympathy for a lot of the lifers who are in there. Their ability to make money got less and less and less and less. And one of the few things that was still around was the Paleo train that was always there. It never completely went away. It just disguised itself in. Let me buy some ads on your station that support this record that you're going to support. Wink, wink, nudge, nudge. And then they do. And there's ones who outright work um, within. And this is, you know, this is well documented, um, where uh, the termine radio is ads. So what you're always looking for is your song to be added officially. And that means. Yeah, add, yeah. So it's goingna be um, it's going toa be played multiple times during that week. It helps you get on the charts and all that kind of stuff. Well, a well worn thing and it still happens within our world in other worlds is that people will say here's $hundred, I need you to add this song. And they may not say it as directly as that, but that's the outcome or it you. The same thing happens on a show level. Hey, now that uh, we've got some money for this live show, we're going to give you some money for this live show. And now all of a sudden you'll see the spins increase.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: That's a sneaky go around that a lot of folks, that's the think that like ooh, we got it. Because technically this money came from maybe the promoter or management quot unquote to promote this one show. But we're going to beef up those spins uh, as result and you'll notice.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: It drops right after.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: As soon as the show'over you're like, I never that song ever again. Um, no, it's definitely a thing that still exists. And there's also like an added layer of. And I've always been like, okay, well when streaming going to get. When are they going to get this? When is this going to extend more so to get them in trouble because that is beyond, you know, that's not even. I don't even think they're doing it secretly. Really. That one feels extremely obvious. Um, and then you have scammers that are like, hey, if you pay me, I will get you on these playlists. Like they found ways to make it even slimier.

<br><br>>> Caroline: And those people are private. You know, you can't find their email addresses and send them a uh, random link there. You know, you can't send the curator of the biggest Spotify playlist unless you know that person through some other channel. Whereas radio people, radio DJs are at least front facing.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: Yeah, our emails are out there. But yeah, to answer your question, the easy answer is yes, it's, you know, it still exists and it still exists in direct and indirect ways. It is. We do have empathy for the people who are Trying to figure out a way to survive. But. But ultimately what it does, it's not even just the, you know, illegality of the whole thing, whatever. Um, it's more about how you are essentially lying to your audience. And over time, people have realized that too. I think that's part of the story with how radio lost its way when. When I say, you know, radio in quotes, the big radio that people think of is because we knew as listeners, they don't really like this. Right?

<br><br>>> Emily Young: We don't like it, so we're not gonna like it.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: Uh, no one is thinking this third single from I'm Not Gonna Name a.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: Band, I think Go. It's making me feel like I need to censor myself. Every time he's gonna say something, I'm.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: Like, name a band who, you know, yeah, sure, can play Bridgestone arena, but whose last record is not very good. Like, you're telling me that you really wanted to play this song? Look, their own fans don't like this song and they don't play it live, you know, but. And then as a listener, you know this and so that erodes the trust. And over time, because you have other options now and you don't have to listen to them, you can go and plug in the Aux core or Bluetooth or whatever you want and avoid it completely and pale A. Uh, really, really. It does a disservice to them long term, honestly.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: I mean, let's talk about the name of this podcast. It Devaluesice Ra. Uh, it does. Because all of a sudden, all of this sudden, this thing that we' supposed to, you know, we'supposed to be curators, we'supposed to be critics, we'supposed to know, have our finger on the pulse and tell you, hey, this is good. We endorse this. The moment that, that gets hazy, that trust is gone. And then again, people just tune out and theyre like, oh, it'just another single from so and so that I Don't.

<br><br>>> Caroline: Care about M y. I wonder if those regulations will stay in place with Mr. Capitalism, uh, in charge.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: Well, and thats where I say, like, even if they don't, right? Like, who? Not. Not who cares? I, uh, do think it would be very important for everyone to know that that is what's happening. Although it's pretty easy to connect the dots if you want to just why people don't. But ultimately it does get back to that idea of you are building trust with the audience. You are talking to them about, you know, their lives, the music, you know, that's the Whole, the whole idea of radio. And if you're lying to them, it doesn't really matter if you're getting paid or not.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: And I mean, even if those regulations went away and we could get paid, I think, I mean, we have the integrity.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: I would never do that.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: Our. Yeah, I mean, to your point, it's our reputation and we've built our whole lives and careers to be a trusted part of this community. I don't think any of us would be willing. Look, we're not in it for money. We're working in public radio, you know, like, I think that ship sail. So we would maintain some level of integrity and just still do it for why we do it, which is, uh.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: I walked away from commercial radio in 1997 for multiple reasons, but one of them was because it was just rife with it and it was gross. And I was like, this is not. I don't want to be a part of this.

<br><br>>> Michael:  Yeah, I mean, we see it now. Like, you like Twitter followers. You can just buy Twitter followers. Like, look how many people. You could do it on Spotify, Spotify playlists, all that. All of these social networks are like trickle down versions of that. And I guess there is some utility to them. Like a promoter might look at your number of followers on a thing and therefore book you. Uh, but ultimately it's exactly the same as what you're describing, which is like.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: That level of engagement. Right. So like you could have 30,000 people, but if out of those 30,000 people, really, I mean, 29,000 aren't even really participating in that, what does it matter?

<br><br>>> Emily Young: Well, and we see that translate in real time when, oh, wow, this TikTok song has all of these plays and this person has all of these followers and then 10 people show up to the show. So clearly it doesn't translate. It's not, you know, a proper equation of this equals that. Because it clearly doesn't. And we've seen that.

<br><br>>> Michael:  Yeah, there's no special sauce, I don't think. No, but I will. I think the best thing that you said in that last like 15 minutes was, uh, part of the menu is radio. It's an and equation, which is like, you should be, uh, angling for a streaming service and Spotify, if you want, go on your Instagram, go on your social networks and also submit the stuff to radio. Like, people seem to pick these paths where they're like, I'm just Instagram.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: Oh, well, I mean, we've all worked in artist management and you want that? You want. Yes, I would like yes, radio's important, but so is your Instagram, unfortunately. So let's make sure we're doing that right. It really is what I think sucks right now and being an artist so hard is that you are no longer just responsible for creating the art. It's like, all right, well now you got to chase down this path. You gotta go to this one. You got toa do this. You've got to create content on top of your art. And it's exhausting. And I think with us it's like, uh, you just gotta give us a good song. Yeah, we're the easiest part of this equation actually.

<br><br>>> Michael:  Just have a wav file.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: Just give a wav file and it's Emily E M M I l y WNXP .org it's the org that people mess up's the hardest part.

<br><br>>> Caroline: One thing I like at the job I currently have is uh, getting to hear little parts of conversations about artists careers, uh, and album cycles and what they're doing. And one of the things I always like are the conversations about, um, which songs to pitch for radio specifically out of, you know, 12 to 15 song on an album, which ones will be the golden egg of radio? Do you. Is there any through line that you see in the songs that you end up picking for your personal airplay or is it just kind of whatever you're feeling?

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: No, I mean, I think there's u. Um, you know, there's a little bit of DNA to this, to the sound, even though it's a pretty broad thing you guys know. Um, but there is a little bit of a fit and not fit and sometimes that's really hard to put your finger on. Um, but I'll say, I think one of the more interesting things now that I'm sure you're hearing in those conversations is where a song can take off in streaming services or in tiktc land or whatever for. For a different reason. And then sometimes they will chase that as a single in a way that it actually doesn't work on the radio as well because this is, you know, it's the background of a tik toc video or it's on a playlist where all the songs sound exactly the same. And that's not dissing either one of those outlets. It's like you people are using music in a different way now, right? It's not just purely this passive thing that's on while you're driving or out at the beach or whatever you're doing. It's like's uh, it's a tool people are using. So sometimes when they. They're trying to pick this single, they're like, it's this song. And it's the super slow ballad that takes like eight minutes to get to the chorus. I'm like, if you put that on right after all these other songs like that in, you know, radio terms is tune away. Someone's gonna be like, nope, I'm over here. And so, you know, we faced that. And when we're sometimes at odds with the label who brings us a single and they'll be reticent to, like, give us another song, they should ask us more.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: Um, they should ask our advice. That's what I say.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: And it varies. You know, look, this is, uh. We've been on other sides of this. I've been in management. I've. You been in that room going, man, what is the song? And the artist has to say. And so it's not disrespectful in that way to say, okay, I know you didn't just draw this out of a hat. You're not throwing this at us. You know, you spent time and you put your best. What you thought was your best foot forward with this. Um, but sometimes it's not. Sometimes they miss, you know, uh, Is.

<br><br>>> Caroline: My lyricism and myo. And you're like.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: And the bass player'like this is the one I have a co write on. You know, like, um, Everybody has their competing things, but I think that is, you know, where we get to be a little bit of an honest, um, you know, sou sounding board for this is that we don't have any skin in any of those games, and we're just listening to it and trying to maintain the ears not of just curators or whatever, but the ears of the listener. And how does this fit in with everything else that we're doing? Um, so it. Man, that is some alchemy, though, like, figuring out what the single is. I don't know. We put on one the other day that's like half Brazilian orchestral pop in funk or whatever. It's like, I didn't. I didn't order that on the menu, but love, it was great.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: There's also. We have the luxury and, you know, if, uh, a label says, this is a single, we listen to the fourth track in and we say, nowah, we're gonna play this one. You know, we like this better, and this is the one that fits for us.

<br><br>>> Michael:  How common is that? I'assumeing there's just so much time in the day. If someone sends you a Dropbox of a 12 track album. And they're like, four is the one you're gonna listen to four. And if you're like not feeling it, do you invest?

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: Okay, I've been doing lots of this. Not revealing things. Uh, on this I will reveal something that is, uh, that is real and that could be, you know, taken the wrong way. But I'm very comfortable with it because I know my process and I know where it comes from. And it is from 30 years of working in music and listening to songs and figuring things out. And um, when it comes, we have a group, you know. But when it comes down to it, I'm the last person at the door who decides, you know, the song goes in or not into the ads, as we said before, add ds. And no, I don't have time to listen to an entire album or whatever like that. But I have gotten really, really good at being able to skim through and grab a little piece of this, a little piece of that. And the thing is, I mean, I think you feel this as a listener too, because, uh, I can see someone going, oh, you only spent 20 seconds with my song.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: That's all it takes.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: But 20 seconds is what most people spend with most songs before they move on. So it's like there does have to be. And there is. That goes back to that magic single sauce. There does have to be a feel that you're able to get pretty quickly, you know, about. And we go through processes where we listen to a song multiple times. Like, is this here? Is this there? Especially when it's reacting with other people like people like this. Okay, why do they like this? Because I don't really get it. I should listen to this again. I don't know everything all the time.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: You know, I feel like I'm the one like people like this. I'm like, I don't. And I say no, but like, it'll.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: Freak my wife out sometimes. Cause I'm listening in this way that probably seems insane. It's just like. And I go to this other section of the song really quick and boom. Uh, o. That's not it. Go to this other one, this one here. And then whatever kind of helps stop me along the way, then that helps it. And I trust it because I trust my hit rate. You know, I've had a pretty good one on that.

<br><br>>> Caroline: So do you offer that service if.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: I mean, you know what? Look, let's see what happens next year with all this stuff we were talking about earlier. Might be a consultant.

<br><br>>> Michael:  I mean, there's A practical aspect to that, that's like, if you have four songs, an EP or an album, send the entire folder correct with the instructions of where to start.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: There's definitely been instances where people are like, I got this new song and you listen to it and you're like, I mean, okay, yeah, it's fine, but it'not it's not a song, it's not the song. And then a month later, and this record's clearly been done, a month later they released the whole record. And you're like, bro, you could. We could have been spendning so much more of this. We could have been invested. So that is key. I spend. I don't know if my min's quite as quick as yours, but it's not very long with the song before you know. And you do know. I mean, also, heck, nowadays the attention span people are on. What is. I keep bringing up TikTok. I sound like an old lady.

<br><br>>> Michael:  TikTok.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: This dam TikTok.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: You're actually on TikTok though, right?

<br><br>>> Emily Young: Uh, I'm not posting on TikTok, but someone's gotta stay hip for us. I know one of us has to do this. I know, but the perfect example of a song that you're talking about, these ones that work on TikTok that I don't think work on radio. And I will say a name, Mitsky. The song Nobody. That was viral and people were all about it. And then you listen on the radio and you're like, ah, this is kind of dragging on, like. And then it gets to the course. You're like, okay, that's fine. But the rest of it, you're like, oh, you really just want that 10 seconds that's in all those TikTok videos. And that is, you know, what a lot of people are doing. That's how they're listening to me.

<br><br>>> Michael:  You saying it's a bad song.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: You're saying it, it's a great song. It's just not necessarily a radio song. It is a TikTok song, right? And it's different. And again, that goes back to the, like, there's too many games you gotta play. There's too many pieces of the puzzle that you should now have to figure out, which honestly sucks.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: Well, and Michaelson, something you said earlier, the very, very beginning was about monoculture. And in radio terms, familiarity. People call them familiars. And you know, and that really is like a term that is somewhat outdated. I was on a panel a, uh, couple of years ago and someone was like, bl. Blah, familiar is and then I went familiar to who.

<br><br>>> Michael:  Right.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: Yeah. So that gets into demographics. That gets into history. Like there are or, you know, we'll have these discussions about R and B songs from the 90s. And frankly, if you're a white person from the 90s, you most likely did not hear some of these songs. So. But they were huge. Right. And so you get into that really, really quickly. And especially now without any sort of crossover culture as much as we used to have, there's still people who have not her Chapelone. Right. Like, this is. It's not. There's no way for anything to be so ubiquitous outside of Shibuzi for.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: You know, I thought you were gonna say Lil no X again. I was really ready. You kept circling back to him. I was like, man, I did not know you were such a f. I.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: Keep up.

<br><br>>> Michael:  Wow.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: Shabuzi is your example.

<br><br>>> Caroline: Keep up. He.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: He keeps up. And this man, I swear to you, we are in the throes of espresso. Sabrina like, doing her thing. And Jason was like, I've never heard that song. And I said, I don't believe that for a second. I hadn't. You have heard it in the background somewhere. You have heard a whisper, a tinge of it as a car drove by. I was like, I refused to believe. You've never heard a second of this?

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: No, never. Well, that was a perfect example of said play. No. And I love pop music, so it's not, you know, it wasn't like, oh, God, you know, Sabrina Carpenter. It was truly. That was, to me, a great example of a moment where, you know, depending on where you are, you know, and if I was. If I was still a parent of a young kid, I would have heard it. But we no longer consumed that I'm not at the grocery store as much anymore or whatever, like the places that I would have tangentially heard it. Whereas, you know, Shabuzi happened to be hitting me because I watch sports and they use it as bumper music, you know, and my son liked it. And we were at an event and it played and he's like, I like this song. You know, that's. It can still reach you. And there'still crossover there. But, like, because that doesn't exist as much. It'it. Is a challenge when we put together playlist on what is familiar when we're trying to pull in songs that aren't just. You can't just play nothing but new all the time. It would. People just were like, no.

<br><br>>> Michael:  And I appreciate that big time. Because there are so many I heard a 1980s Songs by the Corgis. Do you know that Beck song Everybody's got to learn Sometimeeah? That's a cover which I did not know by a band called the Corgis. And I listened to the original and was like, o the original is very cool. I'll listen to this whole album. I listen to the whole album. I was like, man, this. That record is very good. And it ends with a song that has dog barking samples in it, which to me is a huge win.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: Huge win.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: That's the one. That's what sold you.

<br><br>>> Michael:  And it was part of a Christmas single too.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: Now you got me. Now I'm locked in.

<br><br>>> Michael:  So I was like, I was, uh, locked into this. Be like, oh, this is. If this was a Spotify playlist, I would never encounter it because they do not care about something the moment it is released.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: And also, music discovery isn't just new music. There is the entire. I talk a lot about how like theies skipped it. My parents didn't care about it. I was not alive. So I was just like, all that's crap. I was like, I hate it all. And this man, Jason has been like, it's not all crap. And I'm m gonna prove to you it's true that it is not all crap is a lot of bad, though. There's a lot of bad. And I stand by that. And I will say that with my full chest. However, I have been pleasantly surprised. And I'll listen to a show and I'm like, what is that? And I'm like, oh, okay. Not all those songs are bad. I like that. And so it's not just music discovery. I feel like people get caught in this thing of like, oh, all this new music. It was impossible for all of us to keep up with everything all the time. And everyone has gaps in their list. If you're like a dieard music fan, you know stuff from decades and decades ago. Everyone has a gap and they have personal taste. And what is so fun is that we have this ragtag team of people who all, yes, we all have great taste, but it'all slightly different and we come from different backgrounds. And so Marquise will be like, this was a huge R and B song. I'm like, I've never heard that. And I refuse to believe that that's true. But we all come from different parts of life and we're introducing each other to new to new music that isn't necessarily new per se. And, um, I think that's a really special thing that we get to do too. That again, an algorithm'not going to do that. It's not new. You're out. It's over for sure.

<br><br>>> Michael:  Well, what else we got here? I think we're at a pretty good.

<br><br>>> Caroline: Good momentah'such a fun conversation.

<br><br>>> Michael:  It is very good.

<br><br>>> Caroline: I feel like we could go on, but I don't want drag it out too long.

<br><br>>> Michael:  Look, I wanna respect people's time.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: Yes. Is there anything major that you were curious about as far as, like, operationally that we do that we did not cover?

<br><br>>> Michael:  I mean.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: Yeah.

<br><br>>> Michael:  Hours of discussion of, like, what does a week look like at the station and what are the meetings and like.

<br><br>>> Caroline: How get into it? What are you coming from? Just like a music fan perspective. You coming from, like, are these people journalism?

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: You're right. That isn'a whole other an.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: You could do an abbreviated.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: Well, I will say there is a, um. There is one thing that we do face right now that you wouldn't think would be as much of a challenge, which is finding people who are not only interested in being on the air, but then have the chops to do it because. And I'podcasted uh, so it's not about that. It's. I went into this when we launched the station and I was assembling the team. I thought, oh, you know, I'm going to have a whole lot more to pull from M. Because everybody's got a microphone these days and everybody would be more comfortable. They'll know some of the basic things about it. But we found this really interesting fact is that there's a huge difference between you sitting down and you're talking to a microphone about this thing that you know and you're interested in, and us talking to you, you know, us essentially working with you to be a dj, to talk about some things that you don't know or to be included in a group and to be. To feel very comfortable in that not knowing. Uh, and so sometimes it's been difficult to find DJs in a way that it wasn't in that. That would be a big difference between now and, like, 1995. Um, whereas there was college radio that really helped people develop as broadcasters, which is a different skill and something that seems easy and feels easy, but. And then you look back, you're, oh, okay. It took me years to get to the point that I am, you know, doing this. And that system doesn't really exist as much anymore. There are college stations, but that as a function of supporting the broadcast, um, as a job, doesn't work. As much anymore.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: It's also having to follow you, who's been doing this forever. I listen to Jason on the way home. I'm like, damn, how does he do that? I will never. I'm like, wow, that's really. And I'll just listen. I'm like, I should take notes. This is really good. I gotta rip that off somet.

<br><br>>> Michael:  Yeah, it definitely seems like an insane skill.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: And that's what it is. And it's one that, to Jason's point, takes a long time. And I think I would argue that. I will say that, uh, a lot of times if you do not have, um, a traditional sounding voice, you're not necessarily given the opportunities to figure that out. I wasn't. And I. Come on, I'm like, I know I sound like a small child. I look like one too. I was like, it matches my entire existence. And, uh, having people in leadership say, yeah, we want you to sound like that, though. We want you to sound like yourself. I know when it's no one, I love that they're like, no one wants you to put on some type of radio voice. It is, hey, be yourself. And that is. I mean, I'll say that I feel very lucky. But I think that's a problem is that especially for minority individuals, um, if you don't sound like this sophisticated white man, they don't want to put you on the radio. M. And so I think that also goes into finding. I remember being like, wow, there's no women applicants. So I'm like, yeah. Cause I've never had a shot at this ever. Um, and so that's something that I.

<br><br>>> Caroline: Will say that's a problem of capitalism, the more I think about it. This dependency. Yeah, Mic, let me start from the core of the issue. Uh, no, but this dependency on, um, familiarity in getting people to whether. I mean, I think maybe that's why music publications aren't really, like, cool anymore. Because they. We could tell they started just needing clicks and we don't like that. Uh, but when people start feeding into what they think is already accepted. U. Um, to make sure that their income streams remain. Yeah, whatever. Making everyone happy, that's investing in them. Um, and that I think I keep hoping is breaking. Um, but as we saw in. And I don't want to bring up the election, but that's kind of what the perpetuality of, uh, what's familiar. It's hard to break out of it because we're so dependent on the income streams that that kind of helps solidify for sure.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: Yeah. I'D love to. You know, we get one more person in here, we'll talk about country radio and its evolution. Like, no, I mean, uh, it's fascinating. It really is. Like, how it works also, how it.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: Where it functions, you know, where it's not dying. Noah, radio is probably never going to die, is country radio.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: Right? But there. Why there'so m much. There's so many things that have happened just in the last few years that have blown up, like massive, massive artists that they don't play. Still, to your point about. I was. I don't know when you were talking about that, I thought, yeah, familiarity within that realm and the gatekeepers there. Um, now this is me outside of that business, but I know people in it, and I see and I go, man, why don't they play like, Zach Bryan? Like, we're not necessarily going to play that, you know, um, but he's someone who, like, what is country? You know, gets into that thing and then what is country now? Like, he sounds like that, you know, and obviously he's. He's not alone. There's so many of those guys that are, like, hitting a nerve. It's why, like, you've seen some of these numbers that have been coming out at the very end of the year from Tik Took and Spotify and places like that, and what's increased and what's decreased, and country consumption in places that normally did not consume it has really grown. But I think it becomes also like, where, you know, we live in Nashville. And so what you call it.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: What are you calling country?

<br><br>>> Michael:  Country?

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: Because here I'WEARING a Jason Isbeel shirt, right?

<br><br>>> Emily Young: And to me, I'm like, that country. Other people are like, no, it's country. It's country radio. It is the bars on Broadway. It is those folks. It's that s country.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: But I think in the broader terms, from a data standpoint, they are including Jason Isabel and they are, you know, they put Jason Isabl and Zach Bryan and. And Shibuz and all that under one umbrella, and then it makes you go like, welleah, kind of. Why isn't it? I don't know.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: People are kind of. With kind of slicing and dicing all of those genres too. And it's. Yeah, that is a conversation for. That's a whole other. That's a whole other podcast. Our Talking Shit Podcastle. This one's a whole other podcast. Ah.

<br><br>>> Michael:  We started several podcasts on this episode, and it's great.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: We have a network.

<br><br>>> Michael:  I look forward to the hour network. Uh, tutorial on can help to radio.

<br><br>>> Caroline: Perfect. That's a TikTok series, um, that I think could really launch you viral.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: I probably should. Look, I haven't, um. I've been, uh. I've threatened people at work about getting on TikTok and doing some things, but I haven't done it yet because I also am like, I don't need to check another thing. I don't need to, like, know who's watching me again. You know, Instagram's enough where you get that validation of, like, who's watching st.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: You'be the puppet master.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: I could be. Look, I'm a great. I'm very good at that.

<br><br>>> Caroline: Well, uh, I'm gonna do it off Air 2, but just while we're on the mic. Thank you for being here and thank you for the service that you provide to people who, you know, whether it's passively listening in the car or people who really go out of their way to discover new music and appreciate someone sifting through all the thousands and thousands of songs every day, uh, I appreciate what you do and long live radio.

<br><br>>> Jason Moon Wilkins: Thank you so much. Really appreciate that. That's awesome.

<br><br>>> Emily Young: We appreciate you very much.

<br><br>>> Michael:  Thanks for listening to Devalued. For more information about our podcast, please visit Devalued show.